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The Truth behind the HBD cult prt 1

Virgle Kent January 17, 2013 Everything Else 123 Comments

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

T. AKA Rick _Raw is a prolific thinking and blogger who likes to write about human nature and sexual politics, that is to say that he’s a deep thinker.  His blog The Rawness is the place to go if you like to deep dive into matters concerning psychology and the reason why people do what they do. Although hit articles are often long, once he hits his stride he becomes a very hard man to argue against, I’ve been on both ends of this via twitter. Today T gives us the death nail and actual look in to the cult known as HBD. Shit gets RAW.

If you’ve spent any time reading men’s blogs, I’m sure by now you’ve come across the rantings of a subsection of the manosphere who believe in something called human biodiversity, or HBD for short. The believers in this pseudoscience cult like to call themselves “race realists.” They fixate on spreading the gospel of how non-Asian minorities are inherently genetically inferior to whites in terms of intelligence, and that this intelligence gap can never be bridged regardless of what political actions are taken by government or how much hard work is done by these groups. The most accurate way to describe HBD/”race realism” is as a narcissistic cult/support group for shame-filled white people who have trouble reconciling the grandiose self-image they grew up with against the increasingly mundane reality they are faced with as adults.

The first thing to understand if you want to figure out the rituals and mindsets involved in “race realism” is to understand shame and narcissism and how they work. The main motivating force behind narcissism is shame, which is a concept very different than guilt, although the two are often confused. Shame is an area of study in psychology that was neglected for quite a while and has only recently become a strong area of interest. In the past few decades there has been a lot of research on shame, and how it differs from guilt.

Shame, which is more toxic and primitive, is when you think there is something wrong with what you are. Guilt, which is healthier and more mature, is when you think there is something wrong with what you’re doing. Shame-prone people will think “I am wrong” while guilt-prone people will think “I did something wrong.” Shame-prone people will think “I am stupid” while guilt-prone people think “I made a mistake.” For a guilt-prone person, an action at the end of the day is an action, but for a shame-prone person, an action is a commentary on their very being. For a guilt-prone person, since an action is simply an action, when they commit a faulty action, the way to fix it is to confess, come clean, and try to take corrective actions. For a shame-prone person, since each action is a determination on their very worth as a person and a commentary on their whole identity, faulty actions must be concealed, explained away, blamed on others, rationalized, repressed, or dealt with using any number of popular defense mechanisms. Admitting mistakes is very hard for a shame-prone person, because in their mind doing so is the same as admitting that their whole self is defective.

To put it another way, for a shame-based person, their main battle throughout their lives is with who or what they fundamentally are, whereas for a guilt-based person, their main battle throughout their lives is with the quality of their actions. Even when a shame-based person is concerned with actions on the surface, and appears to be exhibiting guilt, in actuality they are only concerned with what those actions reveal about their identity and what their actions reveal about whether or not they’re fundamentally defective. Their sense of guilt is inextricably fused to shame. For example, a guilt-prone person may feel bad about cheating in a contest because he knows it’s wrong and he may feel some empathy for the other participants who played fair and were deprived of their rightful prizes. A shame-prone person when cheating in the contest will feel bad either because he feels that having to cheat must mean that he’s defective (especially if others could do as good without cheating) or because he is exposed and now has had his image ruined and defectiveness revealed.

When you’re shame-based, you have this constant fear of finding evidence confirming to yourself that you really are defective, as well as a constant fear of being exposed as defective or as inferior to other people. There are three faulty coping mechanisms neurotic people use to handle shame. They either avoid and try not to think about or dealing with anything that triggers those feelings, surrender and just give in to the idea that they’re inferior and accept defectiveness as their core identity and live their lives accordingly, or they overcompensate and crowd any such feelings of inferiority out of their conscious awareness by filling their minds with grandiose, over-the-top ideas of superiority. Since the basic fear underlying shame is being defective and inferior to others, those who overcompensate against shame go into overdrive convincing themselves and onlookers of the opposite, that they’re perfect and superior to others.

Those who choose to deal with shame through overcompensation are what we call narcissists. Overcompensation against low self-esteem feelings created by shame-proneness is the fundamental motivation of all narcissism, and this overcompensation is maintained by a variety of defense mechanisms like projection, blaming others, denial, intellectualization (AKA mental masturbation), repression, reaction formation, distortion, splitting, extreme fantasy, acting out, displacement, and others. (It will take too long to define all of these, but google each term if you want to learn more.)

Why are shame-based people more prone to overcompensate via narcissism than guilt-based people? This is because when you feel your problem is your very self rather than your actions, you feel a certain powerlessness to change. Changing what you do feels very possible, but changing what you actually are is very intimidating. When the problem is that you’ve done something wrong (guilt), you can just rectify it by doing right. When the problem is that you are something wrong (shame), where do you begin? When the problem is that you made a mistake (guilt), all you have to do take actions to rectify it like coming clean, restitution, or taking reparative action. When the problem is that you are a mistake, where do you begin? And so on and so on. It’s way harder to change who and what you are than it is to change the things you do, so when you start thinking that your problems stem from who and what you are, you develop a belief that all your qualities, whether good and bad, are fixed and unchangeable.

People with toxic shame levels feel like their problems stem from their inherent identity, who they fundamentally are as entities. They also feel like their actions are not important in and of themselves but only insofar as they “reveal” whether they’re truly defective or not. Actions to a guilt-based person can change what you will become, but to a shame-based person, actions only reveal and “prove” more fully what you already are.

Another difference between shame and guilt is the role of other people. If you are guilt-based, you tend to compare yourself to yourself, and what other people do is less relevant. Since guilt is based on the quality of your actions, the only thing that matters is whether what you did was good or if it was bad. The fact that a whole bunch of other people also did the same bad thing doesn’t change anything. For example, if a guilt-based person steals something during a blackout, they will feel bad regardless of whether or not everyone else they know also stole something at the same time. For a shame-based person, though, since the issue is whether their actual whole self is defective or not, comparison to the behavior of other people becomes vitally important. If a shame-based person steals something during a blackout but finds out no one else did the same, they may feel bad because the fact that they’re the only ones who took advantage could be interpreted as proof they’re defective. But if everyone else also stole the same amount they did, now they can tell themselves they’re not defective, just normal. And if everyone stole more, they can even tell themselves they are superior beings, because even though they stole, they still were better behaved than everyone else.

So with guilt, other people don’t matter as much because if you did something wrong, that’s all that matters in determining whether or not you feel bad about yourself, regardless of whether a bunch of other people also did the same wrong thing. With shame, though, since the issue is defectiveness, and defectiveness is judged by comparison to the norm, what others do is just as important if not moreso than what you yourself do. This is why shame-based people spend incredible amounts of time trying to point out the defectiveness of others, because even if you feel powerless to change who and what you are via your actions, if you can prove others are as bad or worse, you can still ward off feelings of shame.

Race realism, or HBD, is a movement where a bunch of toxically shame-based white men created a cult of collective narcissism, a support group where members help other members deal with the low self-esteem created by their extreme shame issues. They support each other in their efforts to overcompensate against the shame. The main proof that they are shame-based comes from how much they fanatically believe in genetic determinism, the idea that one is either born great or born defective, and that hard work can do nothing to change that. They are constantly trying to argue that greatness comes from racial background, gender, country of origin, genetic makeup, and other things that one is born with and can’t change with actions.

They collaborate together to do all the narcissistic defenses necessary to maintain the overcompensation. They team up to mentally masturbate, project their insecurity and shame onto other groups, to blame other groups, to repress self-loathing, engage in extreme fantasy, acting out, displacement. As I explained earlier, showing other people are equally or more defective is very important to a shame-based person, so just as much if not more time is spent on HBD blogs tearing down and examining other racial groups as is spent on tooting their own horns. This is why they are endlessly fixated on what other groups do, because shame by its very nature is very other-oriented.

The cult fills their self-esteem needs by pursuing three main goals:

(1) Convince themselves and others that despite their unremarkable, mundane daily lives, they are in fact remarkable, superior people who are only out for fairness and justice.

(2) Convince themselves and others that the reason they have unremarkable, mundane daily lives despite being such remarkable, superior people is because of external circumstances, be it minorities, women, liberals, elites, government, and various conspiracy theories, and that in a just world, a meritocracy, they would be greater than they are and in charge of utopia.

(3) Convince themselves and others that there is a real-world revolution brewing and they are not only at the forefront of it but are gaining ground and on the road to winning it, and all their enemies are running scared. This is an illusion of action and activism designed to disguise both from themselves and others the fact that they’re actually a self-esteem support group for shame-filled white men and don’t actually have any real-world political goals or action plans beyond just being a support group.

In future installments I’m going to discuss my theory on how HBD people developed their toxic shame mindsets, as well as go into each of the three goals in detail.

 

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About The Author

Been in the game since 2005 and still learning everyday. But now I feel comfortable giving back and sharing wisdom with guys looking to improve one or two things in their lives that could increase their self confidence and the chance of having a favorable outcome in any romantic interaction with women. When you step to her you know you've already put in that work on your end. Nothing is left to chance.

123 Comments

  1. Martel January 17, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Part of what backs up your theory is how so many who are into white pride mirror the very behaviors they despise in other races more than those who don’t view the world through such a narrow prism.

    There are ostensibly respectable exceptions, of course, but by and large HBD’s have produced nothing on their own and take credit for stuff they could never achieve on their own.

    Soon, I’ll be writing on how leftism is what led to this crap.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 3:49 pm

      Part of what backs up your theory is how so many who are into white pride mirror the very behaviors they despise in other races more than those who don’t view the world through such a narrow prism.

      This is very true.

      There are ostensibly respectable exceptions, of course, but by and large HBD’s have produced nothing on their own and take credit for stuff they could never achieve on their own.

      That’s because concern with one’s actions has to do with guilt. You’re race, your family, your county or hemisphere of origin, all those are inherited, fundamental identity, which has to do with shame, which is the emotional underpinning of HBD.

      Soon, I’ll be writing on how leftism is what led to this crap.

      I think radical, identity politics is what leads to that crap, no matter what the side. Once you get stuck into the mindset of “my team is always better than your team,” and start looking for evidence to support that and ignoring evidence that doesn’t, you are playing the shame game and end up in the same place. That’s why a lot of these anti-feminist, anti-race politics, anti-leftists start behaving as cliquish, petty, whiny, and shrill as the very people they berate. Because they never learn to transcend the shame game, they simply learn to become fluent in it so that they can fight shame with more shame.

      What results is a shaming battle. I’m going to shame you while trying my best to resist your shaming. That’s why HBD people obsess with calling “shaming language” at the drop of a hat and pride themselves on resisting it, yet all the do day-in and day-out is try to shame others and expect it to move them, despite they fact they hate when it’s done to them and pride themselves on being impervious to shaming.

  2. Plumpie January 17, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Or you could have, you know, adressed the points that are often made in the HBD-crowd about things like affirmative action and quota, and scientists being ostracized for articulating and researching politically incorrect topics.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 4:18 pm

      I am going to address the whole “You should engage their actual arguments and evidence” diversion in more detail in a future installment.

  3. whatever January 17, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    Shame? Cult? What are you talking about?

    There are fairly obvious genetic differences between different populations. It’s statistics, not shame.

  4. Aaron January 17, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    I don’t advocate for or talk much about “scientific racism” (apart from in this comment I’m leaving), I sometimes feel bad and confused about it as someone who is with and loves a black girl (and if I’m not so lucky the next time I drunkenly cum inside her, like I was last time, may end up with a biracial child – a very real possibility [which I’d be OK with were I a few years older] – I’d say this holds a little more weight than “I have a black friend”) but I do believe a good amount of it is sound science. Further, it isn’t unusual to study differences between populations, be it animals or humans.

    If there are clear differences in outcomes between populations – black, white, Asian – whatever, it’s actually completely fair to ask, “is this environmental or something innate?” and then embark on answering the question. Especially when the assumption is that white people are to blame for any disparate impact. (We have a right to defend ourselves against accusations of racism.)

    Your blogging history demonstrates you have no problem positing innate differences between men and women. Does this make you a narcissist? Of course not.

    (3) is accurate but true for most political groups, especially on the internet.

    • Virgle Kent January 17, 2013 at 4:13 pm

      Even though I am not the author of this post. I want to say OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A GENETIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RACES, with your own two eye you can see it. But to assume those differences makes one group more superior than another, to think because you belong to “the better race” means you are by far Superior as an individual to anyone in another race and like T wrote,

      “…… this intelligence gap can never be bridged regardless of what political actions are taken by government or how much hard work is done by these groups.”

      Is complete bullshit.

      So for every other comment relating to this post. There is differences between races…. fucking duh

      • Ben January 17, 2013 at 6:53 pm

        How do you measure superiority?

        Intelligence (not necessarily a measure of superiority)?

        If so then blacks are inferior to northern asians.

        • Virgle Kent January 17, 2013 at 9:26 pm

          good question ask someone who practices HBD

          • AA's January 18, 2013 at 10:15 am

            It’s not complete bullshit that the intelligence gap can’t be removed. Go look at the heritability of iq, it’s somewhere in the range 50-80%, either way a lot.

            Furthermore there’s study called the Minnesota transracial adoption study (cant remember the exact name google it).

            Basically it showed that even when black children were adopted by rich white parents, they still do just as well as the rest of their race. There’s another study of groups of orphan twins who were adopted by families of different socioeconomic backgrounds. It was found that twins experience the same level of success in life. The twin that went to the rich family did as well as the one as the poor family.

            At the end of the day, I believe this evidence is sufficient to explain general trends in performance. It’s a liberal lie to believe evolution only stops at the neck.

            But at the end of the day we are all individuals and you have to play the cards you’re dealt and work on your weaknesses. I wasn’t born with great physical/athletic so I work twice hard just to get average results for a black guy. If you’re below avg iq, spend twice as much time hitting the books.

          • Virgle Kent January 18, 2013 at 10:45 am

            “If you’re below avg iq, spend twice as much time hitting the books.”

            I think you just agreed that it can be improved…. that what you’re born with can be worked on and improved.

        • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 5:03 pm

          I am going to go into the Asian question more in future installments, but it’s a trick.

          What HBDers say is “Hey, if we were all about white superiority, why do we admit Asians have higher IQs.”

          But if you look at the overall HBD narrative, it makes sense. I call it the “Goldilocks narrative.”

          Blacks have more testosterone, but they have too much to the point it renders them inferior because of criminality, aggression, whatever. Asians have too little. Whites? Just right.

          Asians have higher IQs, but it’s so high it renders them socially awkward, and they are not good innovators but instead just do rote memorization. Blacks have lower IQs. Whites? Just right.

          That’s why HBD can admit that Asians are higher in IQ. Because they frame it so that that higher IQ, in the case of Asians, actually becomes a negative.

          • Martel January 18, 2013 at 10:06 pm

            Also, giving Asians credit for higher IQ’s is a great shield from any accusations of racism.

            However, the results of the those studies are actually easily refutable. If a rich Asian family adopts the son of a crack-whore, that kid’s going to have problems no matter how well he’s raised. His mind didn’t get what it needed what it was developing in the womb, and this would be the case no matter his genetics.

            Same goes for the twins. Twin children of a healthy mother will have equally developed brains.

            Obviously, you’re pre-natal nutrients result in your physical characteristics after you’re born, and some of these are unchangeable. It has nothing to do with any sort of biological determinism based on race.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 4:33 pm

      First, as VK says, no one is saying that there is no genetic difference between races. It’s the fallacious arguments that stem from that, like that the gap between races is insurmountable, or that IQ is the as overwhelming important to success as they claim, that are the problem.

      And for people who say that the “science is sound” or there are statistics, applying fallacious, sloppy thinking to real science or true statistics still leads to bullshit conclusions. People lie and bullshit with real science and statistics all the time. They misinterpret the real science, make fault logical extrapolations of the real science, or selectively choose whatever real science and statistics support their personal agendas while ignoring real science and statistic that debunks it, as is the case with the fallacy of confirmation bias.

      • Aaron January 18, 2013 at 9:08 pm

        I won’t know what you’re talking about here until you engage with whatever arguments you’re referring to. (I have no idea what those specific arguments are because you haven’t said.)

        You seem to be open to saying everything about these arguments other than engaging with them directly.

        • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 19, 2013 at 12:45 am

          You miss the point of my comment Aaron. I’m addressing people who say “We use statistics and science, therefore everything we say based on those statistics and science must be true.” My point is, that notion is a logical fallacy. Plenty of people tell lies or bullshit using perfectly valid statistics and science as their starting premises.

          You don’t need me to engage in specific arguments or start citing specific HBD statistics in order to understand the general fallacy I just described.

          As I responded to Plumpie, I am deliberately avoiding the specific HBD arguments for a reason, and I will describe why in a future installment.

          • Aaron January 19, 2013 at 10:44 am

            I understand what you’re saying. But as someone who is sympathetic to HBD it is just an assertion. Whatever, I’ll see what part 2 says.

  5. Martel January 17, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    The statistics are by no means conclusive For example, during WWI southern whites had higher IQ’s than northern blacks:

    http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/11/27/creators_oped/page/full/

    I agree that anything that doesn’t fit the current PC narrative gets pushed out of view and is decried before it’s even analyzed. This doesn’t necessarily mean that racialism is correct.

    Not unlike the PC left, HBD’s miss the point. We are individuals, and we’re slaves neither to our biology nor to the opinions of our “oppressors” (unless, like in North Korea, it’s genuine and tyrannical oppression).

    Even if the stereotypes were true, there will always be individuals who defy them. Individualism is among the founding features of our civilization and should remain our focus.

    Governmental segregation and affirmative action are both crap and harm those they are intended to help.

    We’re more than members of a group.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 4:42 pm

      I agree that anything that doesn’t fit the current PC narrative gets pushed out of view and is decried before it’s even analyzed.

      See, we spend to much time talking about political correctness, when I think we need to add another term to the conversation: “egotistical correctness.”

      When someone doesn’t like information that will possibly hurt the feelings of the larger society, even if that information doesn’t hurt them personally, that’s political correctness. Even if it’s plausible and true, if it hurts the feelings of a sizable part of society it must be supressed.

      On the other hand, when someone won’t accept information that hurts their idealized self-image as perfect or superior, that’s egotistical correctness. Even if it hurts little of society’s feelings, if it hurts the injures the ego of a specific person, that specific person will want that information ignored or suppressed.

      My shame theory is egotistically incorrect to HBDers, so it bugs them the same way political incorrectness bothers liberals. Egotistical correctness is to HBDers what political incorrectness is to leftists: an agenda that determines what ideas are or aren’t open to discussion.

    • hbd chick January 21, 2013 at 4:38 pm

      @martel – “during WWI southern whites had lower IQ’s than northern blacks”

      likely selective migration. northern blacks at the beginning of the twentieth century were probably the smarter ones who got up and got out of the south — moved to the north to take advantage of better opportunities.

  6. Martel January 17, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    I meant that southern whites had lower IQ’s than northern blacks.

  7. Casual January 17, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    I think the main point here is not be other focused and focus on yourself. Don’t derive your self esteem from what racial group you belong to, or some other characteristic. What have YOU actually accomplished in life. That’s what matters. Stop trying to blame others and create something for yourself, whatever station you are in life.

  8. K January 17, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    White nationalists claiming to be HBDers are just using the facade of science to support their racist views, but they really have little interest in and knowledge of HBD.

    Heartiste is not an HBDer.

    Real HBDers are interested in human diversity AND the origin of that diversity. For real HBD, check out dienekes.blogspot.com
    The only thing remotely racist about that site is that Dienekes is very proud to be Greek. You’ll find a lot of posts about African genetics with no hint of angry white man racism.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 4:59 pm

      The problem for me is that this is very much like the “No True Scotsman” or “Not All Women Are Like That” argument.

      I keep hearing how x person or y person is different, but for the most part they don’t match up with what I keep encountering. Similarly, I will keep hearing how no real HBDer is a genetic determinist and they all agree that environment and culture play a large part, then that same person will proceed to shoot down any argument someone makes about how environment and culture matter.

  9. Alaska January 17, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    I always find anti-HBD articles to be largely just prose and not much substance. This one is no different.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 5:50 pm

      This was just an introduction to set up key definitions and explain core concepts that I will be referring to in future installments. Later installments will actually refer to studies and statistics, which I know won’t really make a difference, but there you go.

  10. Unending Improvement January 17, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    If you ask any mainstream social scientist, they’ll tell you that IQ is a worthless metric.

    Reputable sources no longer use it.

  11. Matt Forney January 17, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    I consider myself to be an “HBDer” (insofar as I recognize there are concrete differences between the races), but I agree with everything T. wrote here.

    The people who latch on HBD (enough to write whole blogs devoted to the topic) are mental defectives seeking to rationalize away their real-world failures. It’s akin to MRA/MGTOW types who spend their free time ranting about the unfairness of family court and “hypergamous sluts.” There’s an adjustment period when you initially learn about this stuff, but the thing about periods is that they’re supposed to end. Harping on the lower mean IQ of blacks forever and ever is a sign of a damaged mind.

  12. Ben January 17, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Even intelligent blacks like you Virgle can’t accept it.

    That’s an extremely worrying thing. It means there’s not much hope for argument.

    • Virgle Kent January 17, 2013 at 9:14 pm

      what is there to argue about, do I look like I have time to argue?

    • Martel January 18, 2013 at 10:12 pm

      It’s not like Virgle failed to seem some awesome Aristotelian proof. There’s been no evidence by any commenter here that can’t be easily refuted.

      Some guy did the same thing at RoK the other week. The black author rejected some dude’s nonsense and it was “just because he’s black/ego investment”.

      Even if HBD were correct, it’s case hasn’t come close to being made by the commenters here.

  13. James A January 17, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    Have you guys already punted to Return of Kings? This is not the kind of content that attracted me to this site in the first place.

  14. Abe January 17, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    I’ve followed VK, T, Roosh and Roissy for nearly five years now. I’ve also followed HBD blogs throughout that time. I’m not white. I don’t lead an unremarkable or unfulfilled life. I have several years of postgrad schooling in biochemistry. I love all types of people. And I don’t think that HBD will ever gain widespread approval. For some reason, people think that intelligence is the most important trait you can have, so they don’t like thinking about how it is unequally distributed across different races. I’m sure that there are racists who hide under the guise of HBD, but I’ve never paid much attention to them. Some of the best scientists and freethinkers of our time also believe in HBD, like Dr. Watson, the man who discovered DNA. Have you ever watched The Wire? The last season wasn’t so great but it showed how silly our way of thinking is. Children that can’t read are being taught Shakespeare, all because no one wants to admit that there are inherent differences in aptitude between individuals.

    • Unending Improvement January 17, 2013 at 9:22 pm

      There’s a gulf of difference between “inherent differences in aptitude between individuals” and “there are inherent differences between races in IQ.”

      • Abe January 17, 2013 at 10:39 pm

        i didn’t mean for there to be any difference in interpretation for the context you are quoting me from. look at sat scores over the past 30 years. there is consistently one std deviation between races in sat scores. just like over the past 30 years, there is a consistent deviation between races in producing nba superstars.

  15. Nate January 17, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    HBD= mental masturbation by losers. A questionable science at best, but with remarkably positive results for its believers. Hmm…

    Improve yourself? Make something out of yourself?
    Nah bro gonna talk shit about minorities on the internet! (but not Asians because they score higher on tests than me so I’m going to ignore that)

  16. AudioRebellion January 18, 2013 at 12:29 am

    I find this whole conversation very interesting…

    One thing I’m thinking about when any WN, HBD or race realist opens their mouth is they say this because “whites” were essentially the dominant race for a long time throughout the world. Only in the past 70-80 years has the “tide” turned.

    Hypothetically if instead of European whites it was African blacks that had so many innovations in their culture and through that they had unchecked imperialism all over the world.

    Would the WN still be on their soapbox making the claims they’re making now?
    No they wouldn’t be able to for the simple reason they were never “on top”. Is it possible the reason why WN’s have their panties in a bunch is because they aren’t the “biggest kid” in the school yard anymore?

  17. Chuck Ross January 18, 2013 at 12:47 am

    Or maybe the guys who seem to be the focus of this post just find the research into IQ differences to be interesting.

    You might notice that a lot of HBD race-realists are also anti-feminists – or anti rad-fem. The crossover on the internet is huge. Now, I assume that Ricky and Virgle accept essential sex differences. Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who would consider Ricky and VK to bigots because of their gender essentialism. But here they are assuming things about the guys who go a step further. And they want to make the case that since white guys buy the argument that is beneficial to white people that this is some sort of bias. Well, the same thing can be said of both of these guys here who have a huge bias that would prevent them from extending their gender bigotry to the racial realm.

    A certain spirit comes out that is a reaction to the perception that these so-called truths are being covered up or laughed at or not taken seriously in light of at least *some* evidence to support them.

    This is a much better explanation than the rambling argument T. has put forth here. Shame? Why not go with the parsimonious answer, or perhaps don’t assume that everyone who doesn’t automatically shun HBD has some sort of deeper psychological issue.

    • Virgle Kent January 18, 2013 at 1:44 am

      Again look at my first comment on this post. For the last time THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RACES OBVIOUSLY! Just like there is a difference between sexes. But just because there is a difference doesn’t make one better or superior than the other.

      Finding only IQ interesting and discounting anything else is the equivalent of the guy who workouts but does chest day.every.single.day. Congrats you can bench 275 one time. Your squat and dead lifts are 135, great job.

      • Chuck Ross January 18, 2013 at 12:56 pm

        Naming the names of those who you believe only focus on HBD would be helpful.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 5:49 pm

      I had another comment to you but it’s stuck in moderation. I wanted to highlight a few points:

      Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who would consider Ricky and VK to bigots because of their gender essentialism.

      Like VK said, this is a false equivalency. Sure we say that men and women are genetically different, just like we acknowledge that different races are genetically different as well, despite numerous commenters claiming that somehow we’re not aware of this. However we don’t go around thumping out chests day-in and day-out over how much better we are just for being born with a dick.

      A certain spirit comes out that is a reaction to the perception that these so-called truths are being covered up or laughed at or not taken seriously in light of at least *some* evidence to support them.
      This is a much better explanation than the rambling argument T.

      That’s a better explanation? Why is it better than my explanation? By what metric?

      An HBDer, your main metric for evaluating an argument is whether it sounds plausible and is flattering to your ego, so yes, by your metric that is a better explanation.

      Not everyone goes by that metric though.

      I also love how when an HBDer gets angry, it’s explained as an understandable rage that comes from truth being suppressed, but when their opponents get emotional, it’s all about “oh, the politically incorrect truth must hurt their feelings” or “They’re on the defensive because the truth struck a chord.” No matter what, the interpretation becomes self-flattering, unsurprisingly.

  18. oxonbond January 18, 2013 at 5:15 am

    Firs of all, I would like to commend VK and T. AKA Rick _Raw for addressing this topic. However, I think some of the comments that followed the post highlight the challenges of having a constructive discussion on the topic.

    At no point in the post or in the preface to it, did VK or author say that there is no difference between groups of people… such a claim would be nonsensical. The author was trying to engage with how people are rationalising these differences and more importantly, why.

    What a lot of people seem to be ignoring even when they raise the idea of difference, is that there is probably as much difference within groups e.g. intelligence as there is between them.

    ABE- your point fails to consider the disproportionate number of black males who purse a career in professional sports and the disproportionate number of people from higher socioeconomic groups who attend better schools (access to private tutors etc) and have better preparation for examinations. Something that has been taking place for decades. This suggests that many of the issues that are construed as being linked solely to genetics and innate ability are linked to far deeper and often more complex societal conditions.

    I would also like to add that for those people complaining about the content on ROK and NLU, my initial response to these posters is that the internet is big place and there are plenty of other sites that can cater to your needs. But I think that is unfair, because I noticed that very often the poster in question has completely missed the point of what VK and Roosh et al are now trying to do.

    They don’t want you to be a slave to pussy or even to an essentialist notion of ‘game’. They are trying to show that it isn’t about being obsessive about being a PUA in the literal sense e.g. what is the latest fad or technique for getting as much sex as I possible can tonight. They want you to get off your laptop and better yourself both mentally and physically, which means engaging with different ideas and topics. In a nutshell, they are looking at ‘game’ holistically.

    I think some people are looking for a direct link between every post and their ability to have sex that very evening. Come on guys, put the pussy to the side for one moment and take a good look at yourself. You may need ROK and NLU more than you realise….

  19. J January 18, 2013 at 7:28 am

    As I was reading I noticed a shame and guilt analogy with another movement the feminist movement. Could I be accurate? Great read by the way.

  20. Dom I. January 18, 2013 at 10:09 am

    Man, I wish John Derbyshire, Jim Goad, and the TakiMag crew would read this.

    • Martel January 18, 2013 at 4:10 pm

      I’ve talked to Derbyshire about this stuff (in person) and he folded up against reasoned arguments pretty quickly.

      Granted, it was just before his NR dustup so he might have been censoring himself (even though everyone there promised not to tell others what he was saying). However, HBD’s are no harder to debate than most leftists, for they share many of the same premises.

  21. 691 January 18, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    T

    You’ve hit on an important point here yet nonetheless I think your argument suffers from attempting to shove an good insight into the framework of narcissism.

    Where I agree is that it is hard for people to intellectually engage with the themes of race, intelligence and superiority/inferiority, even on their own, without factoring it all through the lens of identity. Membership in a particular racial group often forms a part of one’s identity; we build our sense of self by identifying which groups we belong to. Those who are interested in debating a topic like HBD on the internet may be of above average intelligence and so that forms a part of their identity. Moreover, whether we like it or not, we tend to judge people’s worth in terms of their talents and abilities, of which intelligence is one. We also come to understand ourselves by identifying who we are better than and who we are inferior to; it helps to have a sense of relative identity in order the navigate the broader social ocean.

    These tie-ins with identity make it hard to sustain productive, healthy conversation on one of these three topics, let alone the union.

    And this happens on both sides of this discussion. Some people find the statement of HBD to be insulting to blacks, as an challenge to their identity as equal citizens. They disagree not based on evidence or logic, but because they interpret a statistical statement in terms of identity and see it purely as an attempt to degrade another human being. And any black person who hears about racial IQ differences and concludes he/she must not be that smart is guilty of the same fault: choosing to interact with an abstract statistical statement primarily as information that sheds light on his/her identity.

    The topics of HBD is inseparable from questions of identity.

    I’m sure that there are some shame-driven narcissists out there. I tend to ignore them. But trying to sum up the movement through narcissism is too limited a perspective.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 5:26 pm

      691, here is the problem with your argument: just because something is reflected in human nature and natural tendencies doesn’t mean it isn’t a personality disorder.

      ALL personality disorders are based on a natural tendency, a part of human nature. The problem is when that natural human tendency gets taken to a dyfunctional, toxic, isolating, self-damaging, and addictive extreme.

      For example, take on an individual level: being self-obsessed and self-promoting, liking ego boosts, avoiding ego bruisings, those are all natural features, part of human nature. However narcissism takes those to toxic, damaging, extreme form.

      Everyone hates abandonment, but borderlines have a toxic, extreme, addictive need to avoid it.

      Everyone likes a little excitement and attention and thrills, but histronic personality disordered people take it way too far and chase it addictively in a toxic form.

      Most people agree a little alcohol or cocaine feels nice, but alcoholics and drug addicts are on a different level.

      Showing that something when expressed reasonably is a major part of human nature doesn’t disprove an addiction or personality disorder at all. Most addictive disorders ARE based on things that humans naturally like (and narcissism is an addiction to ego boosts).

      • 691 January 20, 2013 at 2:25 pm

        T
        I don’t mean to argue that pathological, dysfunctional narcissism isn’t behind some HBD writers. But you are attempting to summarize an entire movement and I disagree with your assessment. I don’t think shame-driven overcompensation is the best rough description and interpretation of this strain of thought.

        Instead, I think the underlying idea of HBD is often treacherous and difficult to engage with intellectually; there’s lots of bad thinking on all sides. There are lots of traps for logical errors, poor reasoning, misapplication of concepts and miscommunication. It’s too easy for intellectual and emotional/psychological factors to mingle. The narcissism you describe is just one way people can fly off the rails. It’s just one principle of human nature at work and I disagree that it’s most important one at work.

        And your answer gives little insight into why HBD might be such a fertile idea for pathology and dsyfunction to develop.

        That said, I think you have a stronger insight than you are giving yourself credit for. I think there is a bigger point to be made in this direction, of how our individual psychology interacts with our intellectual work. Restricting your focus to toxic shame (and trying to sum up the movement in that way) is selling yourself short.

  22. T. AKA Ricky Raw January 18, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Or maybe the guys who seem to be the focus of this post just find the research into IQ differences to be interesting.

    Oh, so the guys in question are guys who happen to “just find the research into IQ differences to be interesting.”? So I’m making a reach by claiming that a big part of it is looking for and reveling in evidence of the inferiority of other races in order to get a sense of superiority?

    Are you of all people serious?!? I went over to your site and did a quick search and found that you have a recurring segment called “Blacks Behaving Badly” or “BBB” for short, and it’s a major theme of your blog. I isolated the search in the link below for people to read:

    http://glpiggy.net/?s=bbb

    Here are some of the variations of BBB blog post topics I found: “The Mirage of Benign BBBs,” Chicago BBB, Milwaukke BBBs, Wisconson BBBs, HBCU BBBs, Peoria BBBs, “BBBs #3,452,128 [Get it people, they’re so bad as a group he’s joking that he’s up to example #3,452,128.]

    Wow, how dare I make such a reach, such an unsupported jump in logic as to say that a major focus of these blogs is highlighting the inferiority of other groups in order to fuel the feelings of superiority of angry, disgruntled whites. Obviously your take of “Just a bunch of guys who find IQ interesting” is the more accurate and logical assessment.

    Seriously, all jokes and sarcasm aside, I invite anyone reading to click the link above and then respond whose assessment is more on the mark.

    You might notice that a lot of HBD race-realists are also anti-feminists – or anti rad-fem. The crossover on the internet is huge.

    I mentioned this in the article, near the end when I discussed the three goals of the HBD narratives. This cross section is easily explained: the more groups you can denigrate as being different and inferior, the bigger the ego boost. Why just stick to blacks when you can do the same to feminists, liberals. It’s like an alcoholic, sometimes an alcoholic wants scotch, sometimes he wants a beer. Since HBDers are addicted to narcissistic supply, sometimes they get it from denigrating blacks, sometimes from feminists, sometimes from liberals. All that matters is that they are not ever critiquing themselves.

    • Chuck Ross January 18, 2013 at 11:59 pm

      That doesn’t prove or disprove my motivations or the motivations of HBDers for blogging about such things. I write on the topic some because I find it fascinating for a few reasons: it goes against everything that I believed when I was younger; it goes against what the people who control the media narrative would have us believe; and there are quantifiable differences in things like IQ and crime rates.

      When I think of high profile HBDers I think of Steve Sailer and Charles Murray. I don’t think they fit the characterization you’ve laid out here. Does your average blog commenting HBDer fit the description? Some might and some might not. You’re painting with too broad a brush. The question is what is the essence of HBD? Does it only exist because white guys are filled with shame? I don’t see how that is the case, and your piece doesn’t really go all that far in proving that.

      There are measurable differences that sustain across time and culture. So of course there is going to be an argument over the innateness of these differences. And there are going to be others who point to Scoreboard when they’re told that all groups are the same or behave the same or are on equal footing.

      • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 19, 2013 at 12:37 am

        That doesn’t prove or disprove my motivations or the motivations of HBDers for blogging about such things. I write on the topic some because I find it fascinating for a few reasons: it goes against everything that I believed when I was younger; it goes against what the people who control the media narrative would have us believe; and there are quantifiable differences in things like IQ and crime rates.

        Seriously, do even YOU believe your bullshit? You are so intellectually dishonest it’s mind-boggling.

        If your Blacks Behaving Badly posts and the virulently racist commenters you have commenting on them don’t count as fixating on the group inferiority of blacks in order to let white people revel in a feeling of superiority, what standard of proof can I possibly meet in order to make a valid example?

        You’re obviously the kind of person who will say the sky is purple and water is dry if you felt doing so would allow you to save face and keep from every admitting something that makes you look bad. The fact that you can’t just man up and admit that Blacks Behaving Badly is proof that your blog focus is not just “a bunch of guys who are interested in IQ” goes volumes toward proving my point that at the end of the day all you guys are about is whatever you feel makes you look good.

        If in your world a person is jumping to conclusions and illogical for saying the Blacks Behaving Badly series is racist and aimed at making blacks look inferior for the benefit of white racist entertainment, then you’re threshold for proving racism and ego stroking is impossible to meet.

        There is no point debating a person like you because you clearly don’t debate in good faith. You only debate to win arguments and save face and avoid ever admitting you’re wrong.

        • Chuck Ross January 19, 2013 at 3:50 am

          It’s funny that you think you know exactly by what path I’ve come to HBD sympathetic views. Get over yourself dude.

          Neither I nor my commenters have denied that blacks are inferior on many different metrics. What does that have to do with our motivations for believing so? I think the facts support the claims whereas you think it’s because I/we have some sort of shame complex that causes us to ignore the truth in order to support a claim that is not supported by fact.

          Or, if you accept that HBD has some truth to it, you’re questioning why whites put so much emphasis on the topic of black inferiority. Who is to say? People have all sorts of interests and all sorts of topics that fire them up. You’re clearly just floating a harebrained hypothesis that this stems from shame and a narcissistic drive. The much more interesting question is whether it is factually correct. Because, truth is, we could all sit around and parse group psychology of any racial cohort.

          • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 19, 2013 at 10:12 am

            Chuck, you’ve already demonstrated by your refusal to just call a thing what it is with the Blacks Behaving Badly posts that you’re not coming to an argument in good faith. Why should i keep debating you. You’re either a guy whose so used to bullshitting that you actually believe your own bullshit and are now delusional, or you’re insulting my intelligence by thinking I’ll accept your ridiculous reframing of the Blacks Behaving Badly posts as just a bunch of guys who happen to enjoy IQ discussions or as simple intellectual curiosity.

            Either way, you’ve already shown me that you don’t debating to exchange ideas with others and reach any greater understanding. You’re only out to win and save face at all costs, even if you have to deny the obvious and be coy and debate weaselly.

            If we can’t agree on something as basic as calling Blacks Behaving Blacks what it is, racist, then apparently there’s no point in further discussion, so why bother addressing the rest of your points? I’m ignoring you from here on out.

          • Grit January 19, 2013 at 12:38 pm

            This whole post is a fallacy. Attacking the believers of an argument because you don’t like the belief is a fallacy.

            If your post was something like “Discrediting HBD: the bell curve association is wrong”

            Or “Discrediting HBD: Flawed heterogeneous test samples in academia”

            …this kind of premise makes more sense.

            But when its “Disproving HBD: they all a bunch or racist narcissistic losers” that just another ad hominem fallacy.

          • Chuck Ross January 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm

            This is the clever internet way of tapping out of the conversation. You accused HBDers of not arguing in good faith from the first place, yet you never really showed how they were. You asserted it and think we should all oblige your logic. “BBB” series of posts is merely an extension of the facts of higher black crime rates. Maybe you don’t like my tactics or tone or something, and it pisses you off that there is some truth behind it.

          • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 19, 2013 at 10:08 pm

            This is the clever internet way of tapping out of the conversation.

            After you seriously claimed that even your Blacks Behaving Badly series doesn’t count as whites gloating and reveling in white superiority, then we can’t even agree on something that to me seems basic and obvious. You’re like a guy who refuses to even admit something as basic 2+2=4, but then demands for someone to debate advanced algebra with him. Why would any sane person bother?

  23. skeet_game January 18, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    genetic differences drive differences in not just appearances but also capabilities. so yeah it’s totally possible one race is more intellectually capable, physically stronger etc. than others

    1) Statistics is based on populations though and so these differences between races would apply to averages of quantities being measured, which means there will always be exceptions/outliers that are not a refutation of there being differences (intellectual or otherwise) between different races, no matter how touchy someone may be

    2) A bigger point is that even though these averages may indicate differences which are scientifically defensible, the impact of intrinsic gene-based reasons are hard to decouple
    from society/historical culture and opportunities based ones. No matter how any nationalistic fringe HBD group may protest, a good analysis of some of their “landmark” studies will show you that this purported de-coupling is never conclusive. This is why using any of these studies to claim a supremacy over anyone else based on your genes is laughable.

    3) I will grant that the inconclusive decoupling I mentioned in the point goes the other way too in that it still offers the possibility that gene based differences in intellect etc. do exist. However – and I imagine this is what riles most people against the shrill HBD crowd – even if you are better at one or more things- you cannot use that to claim ownership over anything or a right to something (this country is ours etc., we should ).

    The moot point is we are all born with some skills and then we do our best to maximize them/learn new ones. There may well be a gene-based limit on how far one can do that but superiority is not decided by that, it is decided by results.

    So if you think you are superior but still find yourself crying about how the supposedly inferior races are taking over your country (by machiavellian influencing of immigration laws, getting people of your own ilk to support and champion for them or other covert/conspiratorial means) then quite obviously you and your ilk are actually inferior, not superior.

  24. Virgle Kent January 18, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    At this point T is straight B rabbit vs Free World


  25. Name (required) January 18, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    u even get people of color like asians indians arabs etc. That totally suck up to these so called race realists for approval…such uncle toms

    Can this overcompensation deal explain the behaviour of fat ugly feminists promoting fat acceptance?

  26. Omg January 18, 2013 at 11:21 pm

    You forgot to present any evidence, scientific or otherwise, for your bizarre theory that well-established data, accepted by all reputable authorities in the field, is in some mysterious way a product of hypothesized “shame” on the part of white people. Who demostrate their superiority by banging on at endless, endless length about how Asians are on average smarter than white people. And distributions and averages and stuff. Like, regardless of the racial makeup of the 99th percentile, smart black people are smarter than dumb white people. And somehow, these people you accuse of being white-trash white supremacists won’t shut up about how Ashkenazi Jews are smarter than other Europeans. Yeah, that’s real Stormfront stuff right there.

    You’re just making shit up. Go read hbd*chick and Westhunter. See how that matches your unexamned assumptions here. Please illustrate your theory with concrete examples from those two blogs. That should be good for a laugh.

    Look, I don’t much want to believe it either. I want to believe we can pour another trillion dollars into inner cities and turn them into rural Minnesota, or fix the schools, or something. God knows black America functioned a lot better in 1950 than it does now, even under the horrible burden of Jim Crow, so it’s obvious that a lot of behavior isn’t inherited. But quite a lot of it is. Twin studies aren’t a figment of my imaginary shame either, smart guy.

    You won’t fix anything by retreating into a fantasy world and screaming “racist” at real serious quantitative science, just because it makes you feel bad. Life feels bad. Get over it.

    I’m not wasting my breath. It took me decades to quit kidding myself. You’ll get tired of it too. For now, go on with the unintentionally hilarious used car salesmanship about how it’s a “diversion” for folks to ask you to address their actual arguments instead of shrieking nonsensical abuse at them. You have an emotional need to make yourself feel big at other people’s expense, clearly. But you haven’t got the brains to do it the honsest way. That’d involve learning stats. Easier to spew made-up dorm-room psychology.

    You’ll grow out of that, too.

  27. K January 19, 2013 at 7:07 am

    Your “no true Scotsman” analogy doesn’t hold up. You’ll have a hard time finding a Scotsman in Detroit.
    Have you read scientific articles on HBD? Gone to the websites of research groups studying human genetics?
    The boys screaming HBD on heartiste and similar sites aren’t scientists, they’re not even intellectuals.

    You’re dismissing theoretical physics because you think Star Trek is bullshit.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 19, 2013 at 10:16 am

      If what I’m debating is not “true HBD,” then these guys have hijacked the movement from you guys and are increasingly becoming the public face for it, especially Steve Sailer and numerous others. Those are the types of guys I’m addressing. If you feel it doesn’t apply to you and you don’t fall into their group, don’t worry about it. If, on the other hand, your concern is that I shouldn’t be calling them HBD at all, then take that up with them for hijacking the name of the movement.

  28. rocko January 19, 2013 at 8:36 am

    can this arugement also relate to fat ugly femenists when it comes to overcompensation?

    i dont understand sites like stormfront they actually have people of asian indian arab etc descent goin to them “race realists” and seeking approval…..bunch of uncle toms.

    they praise asians for their smarts but rip on them being weak and passive. Yet they have the nerve to complain that other races(black arab etc) are too aggressive and crazy….haters gonna hate

    when a colored man commits a crime he is sterotyped for it but whites dont get that stigma

  29. peterike January 19, 2013 at 9:41 am

    Ha ha. Laughably stupid theory.

  30. JayMan January 19, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    This post is one giant ad hominen. Wouldn’t it more productive (not to mention more intellectually sound) to attack the claims the “HBD’ers” make than to attack them?

    “Race realism, or HBD, is a movement where a bunch of toxically shame-based white men created a cult of collective narcissism, a support group where members help other members deal with the low self-esteem created by their extreme shame issues.”

    Ummm, indeed… :\ In fact, about the evidence for HBD, you may want to read about it from a Black HBD-blogger (myself):

    About Me « JayMan’s Blog

    And I’m not alone. Check out Nelson, a Caribbean Hispanic HBD blogger:

    HBD: An Abbreviated History of Quisqueya and the Rise of Today’s Dominicans (and Haitians) « Concourse Expressions

    And of course, HBD Chick, a female HBD blogger:

    hbd chick? « hbd* chick

  31. peekay January 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    You start out badly with emotional language “fixate”, “spreading the gospel”, “pseudoscience cult “, “narcissistic cult/support group for shame-filled white people who have trouble reconciling the grandiose self-image they grew up with against the increasingly mundane reality they are faced with as adults.” That last one is hilarious.

    Motivations don’t matter when someone is making an argument. Think about this, suppose I am the most Racist Racist that ever Racist-ed. Now I make an argument that the Earth is not flat. Am I wrong that the Earth is not flat because I’m racist? No. My motivations for making the argument are irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if I’m a narcissistic, shame-ridden, or have feelings of guilt.

    First you should show that your opponents are, in fact, wrong. I await your upcoming posts and hope you can deliver a much better attempt than this. Obviously I (and I’m sure others) want to see scientific studies which back up your claims.

    In philosophy, you attempt to find the strongest arguments for your opponents, and attack them. This is known as charity. It is an attempt to avoid the straw-person fallacy and ad hominem attack. Both of which I see in abundance here.

    Another reading of your article is that you are simply trying to explain your opponents. This is still fraught with fallacies. It’s poisoning the well to start with, you are explaining your opponents in such a way that makes them look the worst. And isn’t it strange that only your opponents are badly motivated?

    It’s also wrong because, imagine one person who didn’t have those motivations and feelings, and still believed in the truth of HBD. You haven’t made a single argument against them.

    It’s a genetic fallacy, mistaking causes for reasons. It doesn’t matter where a persons arguments come from, either they are true or false. Guilt, shame, etc are irrelevant to the truth.

    *************The cult fills their self-esteem needs by pursuing three main goals:

    (1) Convince themselves and others that despite their unremarkable, mundane daily lives…

    (2) Convince themselves and others that the reason they have unremarkable, mundane daily lives…*********

    Because of my mundane and unremarkable life, I sometimes wonder what motivates Ricky Raw. In other words, if I was to commit the same fallacies as Ricky Raw, I might wonder what motivates him to write such a badly reasoned article?

  32. stonerwithaboner January 19, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    Mr. Virgil Kent,

    a quick question if I may…

    If:

    2 + 3 = 10
    7 + 2 = 63
    6 + 5 = 66
    8 + 4 = 96

    Then:

    9 + 7 = ?

    I asked GL and his poster the same question, it’s only fair I ask you…

    • Abe January 20, 2013 at 1:07 pm

      9 + 7 = 144

      If that’s supposed to be an IQ test it’s retarded. All this hate in these comments sections here and http://glpiggy.net/2013/01/19/toxically-shame-based-white-men/#comments is embarrassing. Maybe y’all could try actually listening to each other instead of straight away trying to psychoanalyze everyone around you.

      I am good friends with smart blacks that understand and accept HBD. And VK, T, if you think white people love the concept of innate genetic superiority, you’ve seen nothing yet. The Chinese are providing 90% of worldwide funding towards research on genetic determinism – finding links in our DNA to intelligence, despite what you may think, actually isn’t socially palatable in the states.

  33. tonyroni January 20, 2013 at 11:44 am

    Indeed, you’re painting all HBD’ers with the same broad brush, and ignoring the continuum. Some HBD’ers and their blogs are indeed virulently racist, but others are anything but. Is HBD’er Steven Pinker racist?
    And your post seems to be based on your own psychoanalysis of HBD’ers, and of people generally, which doesn’t really interest me.
    But let’s see what you come up in future posts.

  34. James January 20, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    Black HBD blogger:

    http://jaymans.wordpress.com/

    Black-hispanic HBD blogger:

    http://concourseexp.wordpress.com/

    Many white nationalists are anti-HBD:

    http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/01/kvetching-about-the-schvartzes/

  35. The Specimen January 20, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    HBD is pseudo science full stop. As someone working at the forefront of applied genetics, I can tell you that these people have no clue. Being black has much less predictive power for other taits in general due to increased diversity (shorter LD blocks). It’s why hapmap tag SNP chips don’t give a big increase in statistical power vs uniformly distributed SNPs for le blacks.

    Also, IQ isn’t measuring what you think it is. The fact that IQ is more strongly correlated with future income than parental income and education, quality of childhood schools, and a bunch of other correlated variables, means that it contains the same information as all these other variables and implies that it is in fact some linear combination of them. For those if you who haven’t taken graduate level chooses in statistics or machine learning, it means that IQ is really measuring a bunch of other things that are correlated with future income, most of which are heritable, but aren’t genetic.

    Also, genetic heritability of intelligence implies that the distribution for blacks would be much more spread out and fails to explain why african americans perform more poorly than the children of african immigrants when african americans are an admixture of africans and whites (wealthy slave owning whites at that).

    • ADS January 20, 2013 at 5:56 pm

      Re IQ:

      Aren’t your ideas disproven by adoption studies showing that a) IQ, and other personal traits, are primarily inherited from the biological parents and b) IQ still has a huge effect on outcomes.

      Re: that heritable traits should exhibit a greater spread among more genetically diverse populations.

      If population A and population B are greatly different in genetic diversity, due to B having a greater rate of acquiring mutations, might not population A be more diverse in the heritable trait Z conditional on almost all mutations having a small deleterious effect on Z?

      That is, population B might well be more genetically diverse wrt to trait Z, but less functionally diverse, since almost all of the extra genetical diversity is slightly negative.

      Anyway, if you want to seriously engage with HBD types that have a good understanding of genetics you should head over to http://westhunt.wordpress.com/ and have a chat with Greg Cochran. You might be surprised.

    • hbd chick January 21, 2013 at 4:30 pm

      @the specimen – “…fails to explain why african americans perform more poorly than the children of african immigrants when african americans are an admixture of africans and whites (wealthy slave owning whites at that).”

      selective migration might explain that, i.e that immigrants from africa today are high-iq individuals (that’s why they are capable of emigrating).

      no psychometrician or hbd’er worth his salt has ever suggested that there aren’t plenty of africans/african-americans with higher iqs than average- or even above-average-iq white folks.

  36. Abelard Lindsey January 20, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Malaysia, and the rest of South East Asia, is the clearest demonstration that HBD is real. Singapore, the city state with 5 million, has overtaken all of Malaysia, a nation state with 23 million people, in GDP. Singapore’s population is 70% Chinese. Malaysia’s population is 23% Chinese. If you look at each and every South East Asian country, the level of economic development is proportional to the percentage of Chinese people in that country. This is true for every country in Southeast Asia.

    Slavery and racism cannot account for the differences in performance between Chinese and Malay people. Both were exploited by the colonial masters, who were exclusively European whites.

    A visit to Malaysia is particularly instructive of the reality of HBD. Notice the characteristics of the Chinese and the Malays, the way they dress, the way they act, their language and mannerisms. The typical Malay can speak Malay, but may well cannot write in their mother language, and speaks in broken English, if at all. The typical Chinese not only speaks good English and Malay, but often speaks Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hokken. They can read and write effectively in all of these languages.

    Oppression of the Malays by the more successful Chinese cannot be blamed for this difference. The Malaysian government has implemented a “pro-Malay” affirmative action policy since the early 70′s that goes way beyond anything that has even been considered by the liberal democrats in the U.S. Yet, after 40 years, the Chinese are still more successful than the Malays.

    Trust me guys, HBD is real.

    • BeBob January 21, 2013 at 3:40 am

      @ Abelard

      How are those things proof of genetic determinism? Why not presume cultural factors, social factors, health factors, religious factors, dietary factors or any other environmental/epigenetic consideration that science is increasingly showing to have a profound effect on all aspects of our evolution, and traits? It is the presumption and certainty (so far, far from definitively proven) of genetics as the predominant cause – and the reesulting philosophical conclusions – that makes HBD fans a joke.

      • Aleph January 21, 2013 at 11:29 pm

        Abelard is saying that environmental/cultural factors may be mitigated in the case of Malaysia due to the fact that the Malay government employs discriminatory policies against Chinese Malays to keep them suppressed.

        Nonetheless, they are the most productive segment of the economy, despite their repression. Abelard is saying that this points to in-born genetic superiority. Of course, this does not mean that a Malay cannot be as smart as a Chinese, but it’s just that the Chinese in general tend to be more accomplished than their Malay neighbors.

        • Bebob January 22, 2013 at 6:46 am

          @ Aleph

          “Abelard is saying that this points to in-born genetic superiority.”

          Well, it does nothing of the sought – that is what they would call a non-sequitur. Furthermore the idea of superior or inferior is purely philosophical and is in no way a scientific proposition. Science isn’t in the business of demonstrating superiority – on the other hand in the evolutionary sense “superiority” might be thought of as that which enables a population to survive. Yet, nations with high average IQ’s have low birth-rates so by the standards of evolution must have genetic inferiority.

          But that is an aside. The real point here, is that flimsy arguments and suspect reasoning are leading HBD advocates to draw sweeping conclusions that often don’t follow from the evidence. The science of epigenetics is the death knell of HBD, but HBDer’s haven’t realized it yet. Epigenetics shows that traits can be acquired by one generation through the environment and passed on to succeeding generations. This suggests that it is how genes are expressed that is relevant and that environment plays a significantly more crucial role in traits than genetic determinism.

  37. Dan January 20, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    Human Biodiversity includes height variation among people and all manner of other things that people accept readily. We already know these parts of human biodiversity are true.

    Does anyone care to deny that the average height of the Inuit is different genetically from the average height of a Jamaican? Of course not.

    Or that the average European digests milk better than the average East Asian?

    Or that blue eyes are common in Nordics but uncommon in Africans?

    Then why should average cognitive levels be exactly the same for all people? There is no reason to think that human population variation, easily accepted in all other aspects, should cease from the neck up.

    The belief that human population variation can happen in all other aspects but the brain is just that, a religious belief.

    As you would expect, there is plenty of variation in the results of different population groups in performance on cognitive tests, from IQ tests to the SAT, ACT, LSAT, and any other standardized test. There are infinitely many rationalizations to avoid facing the reality that the tests are simply what they are.

    Why do people care? What motivates many is noticing that not all populations are equally able to sustain civilization. Some populations have never sustained high civilization.

    A fear is that if your nation begins to demographically resemble groups that have not been able to maintain civilization, your nation my lose its civilization, or at least see decline.

  38. Eryximachus January 20, 2013 at 11:46 pm

    Well Ricky, I’m sorry you’ve chosen to take this path. As an ardent White Nationalist, I was hopeful you’d be a negro I could respect.

    Narcissism seems to be the only way you can conceptualize the world at the present time, which is unfortunate.

    HBD exists because we have this state religion that says humans are equal, and that therefore unequal outcomes is due to an external cause.

    That external cause, is “racism”.

    Now, every sane person alive outside of America and Western Europe knows that the savagery of your people is genetic in origin. But in America, we can’t say that. So, we have to develop this science to methodically examine what precisely is the cause of said savagery and barbarism.

    Frankly, most White Nationalists don’t really have a problem with your people. Yes, you make our cities unlivable, and you do murder and rape our people by the thousands every year, but most of us simply think of you as animals that are not sufficiently controlled.

    The general consensus is that when the revolution comes, we will give your people a state in the south. There, you will be free to pursue your own destiny and be free of us evil narcissists.

    Despite this ridiculous article, we will still nominate you as a leader to assist the population transfers to the future Blacktopia.

  39. ben316 January 21, 2013 at 2:44 am

    A psychoanalysis (which is wrong, btw) of those who espouse HBD is not a cogent argument that refutes HBD.

    HBDers believes that, on average, black people are less intelligent than white people. So far, this gap is empirically indisputable. The only way to argue that the gap is meaningless is as follows:

    1. Race does not exist.
    2. IQ is meaningless
    3. The gap is 100% environmental(or impossible to compartmentalize).

    1. This is very easy to address, namely because I do not even need to disprove Lewontins’s claim (which is actually misleading) that there is more within group variation than between.

    Lewontin concludes that 7% of genetic variation is between races. He concluded (a) that race is meaningless (which was later refuted by A.W.F. Edwards, and (2) that therefore, there can be no racial differences.

    (2) is clearly Wong, since if there is non-zero difference between races, then that implies that their is room for differences between races in cognitive ability. In other words, that 7% of difference between races could manifest itself in intelligence differences.

    (2) The claim that IQ is meaningless is made in several ways:

    (1) The Flynn effect refutes IQ.
    (2) IQ does not measure intelligence

    (1) is wrong, since not even Flynn believes that the existence of the Flynn effect refutes the validity of IQ. For example: If you are just looking at one generation, then the problems that arise from the Flynn effect are non-existent. Its only when you look at multiple generations that the Flynn effect is non-trivial.

    (2) This is true in the sense that IQ does not measure Intelligence at 100%, but hardly any socially constructed test does. However, IQ is the best predictor of school performance, income and jog performance, so IQ is clearly not meaningless, and it clearly measures, to a degree, what is required to succeed in the West.

    (3) Is definitely the best argument that is put forth by critics of hereditarianism. Stuff like gene-environment interaction is cited to show that one cannot measure the heritable component when there is a significant amount of interaction present.

    Well, this is actually wrong in some cases, so you need to look at it on case by case basis . Secondly, the claim that most phenotype(including IQ) are a result of interaction is empirically unsound.

    Environmentalists may also cite racism. Well this is is wrong, since jews were discriminated against, yet they are more successful than the power who discriminated against them. IF discrimination was such a huge factor in the gap, then the jew-wasp success ratio would be impossible.

    Environmentalists also cite differences in SES. This is probably their strongest argument, and i think that time will tell if this really is true.

    Anyway, this is a very condensed and simplistic overview , but an overview none the less. My point in writing it was to show that the evidence for HBD is quite sound.

  40. Umbra January 21, 2013 at 3:42 am

    Still the VAST MAJORITY of any article put up supporting HBD in the manosphere is usually there just to complain about something, otherwise why would sites about Game have interest in it? …I mean, if its so “scientific” and all… (which is what Heartiste’s site has sadly become…nothing but complaining about things…used to learn some things there). One out of context, scientific study (that NEVER takes environment into account EVER) and then the rest of the article is complaining about the US president and fat women. This in turn leads to nothing but racist comments in response to the article. Not saying all of them just the majority and it’s pretty clear what they’re getting at. When you say Black people have more androgen receptors, you mean American black people, African- Americans. Not all black people. This is because of selective breeding during the slavery-era of the USA. Have you seen native African people? Their tall and skinny, a product of evolution to their environment (weather, terrain, diet, etc.). African American people are larger, stronger, and faster than most because of that selective breeding, NOT some beginning till end of time determinism. As for the high IQ in Asians, these IQ tests aren’t administered to single digit children, they’re administered to teenagers that have grown in a home where their passed down CULTURE (see: not their genes) has made their parents, particularly the father, very strict on them about academia. But, lo and behold, all of these racists will still be taking the day off on MLK Jr., won’t they?

  41. hbd chick January 21, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    @rick – “Shame is an area of study in psychology that was neglected for quite a while and has only recently become a strong area of interest. In the past few decades there has been a lot of research on shame, and how it differs from guilt.”

    references? thanks.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 25, 2013 at 4:32 pm

      @hbdchick:

      All you really have to do if you’re willing to read up on shame versus guilt is google the terms. Just starting at the wikipedia entry for shame will give you a good overview and provide you with directions for further reading. I won’t provide the link because the comment will then go into moderation.

      Regardless, I will provide the links to the shame and guilt research and studies in the next installment?

  42. hbd chick January 21, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    @rick “Shame is an area of study in psychology that was neglected for quite a while and has only recently become a strong area of interest. In the past few decades there has been a lot of research on shame, and how it differs from guilt.”

    references? thanks.

  43. hbd chick January 21, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    @rick – “Race realism, or HBD, is a movement….”

    hbd, or human biodiversity, is not a “movement.”

    human biodiversity (to steal a definition from another blogger, nelson) is simply:

    “The set of biological and genetic differences between (and within) groups – specifically, the study of such differences.”

    (sorry for the double comment above.)

  44. Aleph January 21, 2013 at 11:18 pm

    There is grave injustice in the world that needs fixing. I am not saying that the white nationalists are the ones with the correct ideology to fix it, but the world is not functioning optimally and is definitely in dire need of change.

    I think WN’s are piggybacking on the decline of the West and, as Raw has said, projecting their narcissism unto minorities.

  45. Aleph January 21, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    I also want to mention that WN’s do have some logical basis for their supremacy theories. White men have largely shaped the world as we know it and do tend to perform better in competitive settings.

    That said, I think the flak that they receive comes from the idea that they’re buying into this primitive-tribal based idea of unity as a response to the coalescence of other racial/social groups (blacks, Latinos, gays, Democrats, Republicans) along similar lines. Some might view them as reactionaries.

    It’s possible that WN’s have coalesced simply due to the fact that they feel they must in a society where the ruling class employs policies (feminism, affirmative action, white guilt) to suppress them socially and economically.

  46. Nelson January 22, 2013 at 2:26 am

    This post is easily summed in two words – attribution bias; you portray HBD’ers as narcissistic, shame-driven white ethnonationalist dudes with axes to grind while ignoring, as JayMan said, the non-white HBD’ers (like me!) and female HBD’ers like hbd* chick.

    By likening HBD’ers to cultists and using loaded pejoratives in such statements as:

    The main proof that they are shame-based comes from how much they fanatically believe in genetic determinism, the idea that one is either born great or born defective, and that hard work can do nothing to change that.

    and this:

    They team up to mentally masturbate, project their insecurity and shame onto other groups, to blame other groups, to repress self-loathing, engage in extreme fantasy, acting out, displacement. As I explained earlier, showing other people are equally or more defective is very important to a shame-based person, so just as much if not more time is spent on HBD blogs tearing down and examining other racial groups as is spent on tooting their own horns. This is why they are endlessly fixated on what other groups do, because shame by its very nature is very other-oriented.

    …you undermine your own credibility. Mind you, I don’t always agree with things HBD’ers say and there is room for debate, but argumentum ad hominem gets us nowhere, wouldn’t you say?

  47. Aleph January 22, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    @ Bebob

    If environment cannot explain the economic success of Chinese Malays over their ethnic Malay counterparts, then what does? Again, notice that both groups are in the same geographical area and speak the same language. The difference is that Chinese are suppressed by the government, yet they are still performing better economically.

    Why is it that you totally discount the possibility of higher in-born IQ among the Chinese versus Malays when there is really no other way to explain the phenomenon? Notice, because they are living in the same geographical area under largely the same conditions, the phenomenon of epigenetics is not applicable here.

    I am willing to admit that what I define as “superior,” i.e. economic clout, isn’t a universal. However, I feel it’s a good metric to use since it tends to correlate positively with standard of living and happiness.

    • Bebob January 23, 2013 at 12:16 am

      @ Aleph

      I have actually noticed that HBDer’s tend to either honestly or dishonestly (I don’t really know) offer a limited definition of “environment” – either they don’t actually understand the concept (which would be ironic) or they are deliberately misrepresenting the idea.

      Environment isn’t simply living around the same trees, hills and rivers. It includes factors such as in-womb stresses, parental stress, toxins in the environment, diet,and any number of factors for which it would seem impossible to control in a scientific setting. It is no surprise that you would dismiss epigenetics as a factor – you haven’t understood the scope of the phenomenon.

      It is the very idea of whether IQ is “in-born” that is under discussion – I entertain the possibility, but I see that there are way too many other factors that could be affecting how genes for intelligence could be expressed that preclude any definitive conclusion. So it isn’t that there is no other way to explain the phenomenon, HBDer’s just aren’t interested in genuinely looking for other ways to explain the phenomenon.

      As an example of how poorly your argument is reasoned consider this; both the Phillipines and India both have significantly lower IQ averages than China, Japan, or Korea. Yet, in the US, both these groups out-perform Chinese and Korean immigrants in terms if income and prosperity.

  48. Blaximus January 22, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    Laugh. Out. Loud.

    The very idea of sad individuals desperately trying to raise their very average selves to a level ” above ” others is an indication of mental deficiency. Great article. Better comments.

    All of the ” shameful ” commenters….there’s still time for you to change your silly and childish ways. You wanna be superior? Better than the next guy? Well then, drop your phony science and go out and MAKE something of yourselves instead of a whiny, whimpy, steaming pile of patheticness.

    ….that is all. You may return to your HBD defenses ( because ultimately it is all the hardcore shame-masters really have )

  49. tone g January 23, 2013 at 4:43 am

    HBD is a narrow-minded attempt to quantify and explain what we all already know – that different races don’t think, act or organise identically. The movement exists to counter the same “big lie” of our culture that you guys are attacking – equalism – just from another angle. Ironically, if the topic wasn’t so strictly verboten, it might develop into something meaningful.

  50. JT January 23, 2013 at 11:40 am

    So what of “cultural supremacy” I wonder?

    Isn’t it pretty clear that performance and cultural values are closely related?

    I would find it hard to deny my own personal experiences if someone were to sell me on cultural relativism and accuse me of narcissism. Thomas Sowell seemed to address this point rather well with his article on the Dunbar school. It isn’t as if I can’t look at the halves of my own family and conclude that one half was willfully stupid based on the culture they arose from and perpetuated and the other half left that same culture a generation earlier and “bootstrapped” it to a better life out of realization that willful ignorance breeds more ignorance. Or more succinctly, “poor people have poor habits.” That doesn’t just apply to individuals in my experience, it is also largely cultural.

  51. Robert January 23, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    “Environment isn’t simply living around the same trees, hills and rivers. It includes factors such as in-womb stresses, parental stress, toxins in the environment, diet,and any number of factors for which it would seem impossible to control in a scientific setting.”

    The late Arthur Jensen, who was the world’s leading authority on race differences in intelligence, always stressed what I’ve quoted above.

    “It is the very idea of whether IQ is ‘in-born’ that is under discussion – I entertain the possibility, but I see that there are way too many other factors that could be affecting how genes for intelligence could be expressed that preclude any definitive conclusion.”

    If you care to look into it, I think you’ll find yourself believing in the truth of HBD. This is a good place to start:

    http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf

    Constantly harping on the lower IQs of blacks is pointless and rude, but their lower IQs do need to be acknowledged because, at least in the US, we’re supposed to pretend that all racial inequality is purely a result of racism and discrimination, whether explicit or implicit.

    By the way, if you’re looking for something wrong with the minds of HBDers, it’s probably depression. Derb wrote about this in ‘We Are Doomed': “Up to a point, the more depressed and maladjusted you are, the more likely it is that you are seeing things right, with minimal bias.”

  52. T. AKA Ricky Raw January 23, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    By the way, if you’re looking for something wrong with the minds of HBDers, it’s probably depression. Derb wrote about this in ‘We Are Doomed’: “Up to a point, the more depressed and maladjusted you are, the more likely it is that you are seeing things right, with minimal bias.”

    Like a typical HBDer, everything gets rationalized into a self-serving bias. So depression and maladjustment is acknowledged, but then is interpreted to be a sign that one is highly likely to be “seeing things right, with minimal bias,” making it into a sign of superiority. this is the exact point i was making in the article. When reality doesnt mesh with grandiose self-image, the defense mechanisms kick in to preserve the narcissistic self-image. Derb thinks “if I’m so great, why am i depressed and maladjusted.” a normal person looks at depression and maladjustment as a wakeup call to reevaluate life and choose a different path. narcissists look at negative evidence against their grandiosity and look at it is a call to repair their narcissistic self-image with defense mechanisms, in this case self-serving rationalization.

    instead of trying to work on his depression and maladjustment, which would require actual actions and challenging work, which is how a guilt-based person thinks, Derb turns it into a problem of identity, which is how a shame-based person thinks, and tries to reframe depressed makadjusted person into a positive identity that indicates superiority, so that now he doesnt actually have to take action or admit imperfection.

  53. Robert January 23, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    @Ricky Raw

    Extended quote from Derb’s ‘We Are Doomed':

    “Can we correct our biases? That depends on whom you ask. The overall picture that emerges from the cognitive science researches of the last half century is one of a brain that struggles to cope with reality, and rarely does it very well.

    “Worse yet: Its not doing very well may be adaptive. That’s a term of art in biology. A trait is adaptive if an organism that possesses this trait gets a reproductive edge thereby over an organism that doesn’t.

    “Researchers like S. Taylor and J. Brown (Illusion and Well-Being, 1988) have found that a moderate degree of self-deception is normal in mentally healthy people, and is likely adaptive.
    Contrariwise:

    “‘[I]t appears to be not the well-adjusted individual but the individual who experiences subjective distress who is more likely to process self-relevant information in a relatively unbiased and balanced fashion.’

    “To put it slightly differently: Up to a point, the more depressed and maladjusted you are, the more likely it is that you are seeing things right, with minimal bias.”

    Anyway, you continue with the ad hominem attacks and you keep treating HBDers as a monolith, even with Jayman and HBD Chick commenting on your post.

    I do look forward to your second post. You don’t seem very familiar with HBD or its critics. If you want to make yourself look good, I recommend reading Richard Nisbett. His arguments are as good as anti-HBD arguments get, and you’ll get destroyed by the HBD crowd in the comments.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 23, 2013 at 6:33 pm

      Robert, the added context changes absolutely nothing about my point. The concept Derbyshire is referring to is called Depressive Realism, and it’s one that has had many criticisms for being flawed or incomplete. Whether or not one ultimately agrees with these criticisms or not, they go to show that the findings of depressive realism aren’t as airtight as proponents of it pretend. To get a summary of some of the counterarguments against depressive realism, you can check this link:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism#Arguments

      From the link:

      Since there is evidence that positive illusions may be more common in normally mentally healthy individuals than in depressed individuals, Taylor and Brown (1988) argue that they are adaptive.
      However, Pacini, Muir and Epstein (1998) point out that from the perspective of Cognitive-Experiential Self-Theory, depressive realism may be because depressed people overcompensate for a tendency toward maladaptive intuitive processing by exercising excessive rational control in trivial situations, and note that the difference with non-depressed people disappears in more consequential circumstances.
      Knee and Zuckerman (1998) have challenged the definition of mental health used by Taylor and Brown and argue that lack of illusions is associated with a non-defensive personality oriented towards growth and learning and with low ego involvement in outcomes. They present evidence that self-determined individuals are less prone to these illusions.
      Colvin and Block (1995) have criticised the logic and empirical evidence used by Taylor and Brown to link mental health and positive illusions. They argue that there are a fair number of studies that fail to replicate the findings, and that a closer examination of the evidence doesn’t support their thesis.
      Dykman et al. (1989) argue that, although depressive people make more accurate judgments about having no control in situations where in fact they have no control, they also believe they have no control when in fact they do; and so their perceptions are not more accurate overall.
      Dunning and Story (1991) have shown that when applied to real world settings, depressed individuals are less accurate in their predictions about the future and more overconfident than their nondepressed counterparts.

      I have read these studies and several others that show that the evidence for depressive realism is far from airtight and may only apply in specific, trivial contexts. I learned all this because I wanted to do a post proclaiming the virtues of depressive realism some years ago, but after reading the research for and against I decided there were too many unresolved holes in the theory, even though the theory was one that was helpful to the point that I wanted to make.

      Derbyshire however stops his level of inquiry the moment he finds evidence that supports a flattering self-view. That’s because he’s not interested in the truth so much as he is in plausibly presenting a self-flattering image of superiority. His examination of the topic and conclusion of how applicable and unrefutable it is is very superficial and facile.

      He finds that he may be depressed and maladjusted, he goes off and engages in a campaign of confirmation bias to find the study and concept that turns his depression and maladjustment into a positive trait and allow him to keep his image of superiority intact and his curiosity and inquiry pretty much ends once that goal is accomplished and he finds the plausible grounds for his rationalization.

      Anyway, you continue with the ad hominem attacks and you keep treating HBDers as a monolith, even with Jayman and HBD Chick commenting on your post.

      If an HBDer was to make a post with a racial generalization in it, and someone was to point out “Hey, that’s not true because I know 3 people who don’t fit that description,” what would his answer be to that charge? Because I’ve seen that happen to HBDers all the time. They usually say “Well of course every generalization has exceptions. Any rational person knows that when someone makes a generalization they don’t literally mean every single person fits that description.” That’s why I’m surprised HBDers would find this argument of pointing out exceptions to be persuasive, since it never works on them when used against them.

      The fact that everyone keeps pointing to the same 3 people over and over as refutation of the generalization just makes it the exception that proves the rule.

      For example in the men’s rights movement there are some prominent women like Girl Writes What and Dr. Tara, the woman behind shrink4men.com. However pointing out those two doesn’t invalidate the claim that the Men’s Right’s Movement is largely a movement of men?

      Ok, so to make it clear, when I make generalizations, I am not literally saying that they apply to literally every single member of the group but rather a vast, vast majority. Happy?

  54. Robert January 23, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    @Ricky Raw

    “Happy?”

    No. I can’t think of a more eccentric group of people who are in constant disagreement than HBDers.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 25, 2013 at 4:28 pm

      Out of curiosity, I went over to hbd chick’s site. The very first thing I see on the top of the screen is the name of the blog “HBD Chick” followed by the subheading that is coincidentally the same phrase I used to describe hbd chick, Nelson and Jay Man: “The exception that proves the rule.”

      Even she acknowledges that she’s not representative of the norm! So I still feel comfortable in my generalization.

  55. Daveed January 25, 2013 at 12:48 am

    If you want to find psychological reasons for why HBDers believe what they do, I think you should pay a lot more attention to the thrill of crimethink, taking the red pill, seeing through the official lies and stuff like that. That resonates a lot more strongly with my impressions of HBD people than your shame theory. There might be something to it, but it’s not the whole story, even if we’re limiting ourselves to psychological (as opposed to rational) reasons for HBD beliefs. Also, it looks to me like for a large fraction of HBD fans, “white pride” type thinking just isn’t there at all, and they’re really not interested in proving their own race superior or whatever – the main psychological motivation seems to be aforementioned attraction to “forbidden” ideas.

    • T. AKA Ricky Raw January 25, 2013 at 4:26 pm

      If you want to find psychological reasons for why HBDers believe what they do, I think you should pay a lot more attention to the thrill of crimethink, taking the red pill, seeing through the official lies and stuff like that.

      Even if we were to work with your theory, you’re still not taking it far enough. Okay, so there’s a thrill of crimethink,” or “taking the red pill,” of “seeing through official lies”…what exactly is the feeling behind that thrill? Follow the thought all the way through to its logical conclusion. So there’s a thrill with that. Okay, I can dig that. What exactly is that thrill? That thrill is the feeling of superiority. Look at the language you use even. Taking the red pill? Using the analogy of the Matrix, you’ve taken something that makes you more enlightened and advanced then the vast majority of the population of mindless zombies, just like in the movie. Taking the red pill in the Matrix makes you the hero of the movie. That’s what makes the fantasy of the movie and the red pill analogy so compelling. The description of “seeing through official lies” also implies superiority. You’re too smart to fall for the conspiracies that most of the people fall for.

      So even if you’re right, it doesn’t disprove my theory of chasing feelings of superiority. That thrill you talk about is exactly what I’m talking about, superiority feelings.

      Also, it looks to me like for a large fraction of HBD fans, “white pride” type thinking just isn’t there at all, and they’re really not interested in proving their own race superior or whatever – the main psychological motivation seems to be aforementioned attraction to “forbidden” ideas.

      We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I see plenty of that “white pride” thinking. For example take Derbyshire’s article on teaching white kids about how to deal with black people, and how many HBDers went to bat for Derb after that article.

  56. Negro Libre January 29, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    For the sake of being prudent, I can’t say I agree or disagree with the psychological evaluations of HBDers. All I know is that looking back in history, the pragmatist (the belief that truth is democratic in my interpretation) philosophy and Social Darwinism came to prominence in America around the same time. And outside of the horrors of Eugenics in Germany during WW2, there is no evidence that such ideas ever went out of style in intellectual circles.

    There is no doubt that the Western world is in decline, and since we’re a nation constantly engaging in wars between special interest groups (also most our College professors teach us to think in terms of Hegelian Dialectic as though this way of viewing conflict is universally true), it’s no surprise to me that a lot of White guys have found comfort in old ideas as developed by Galton, even though history has shown how bad things can go when you put those ideas into practice.

  57. Mike Steinberg January 30, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    From my experience a lot of HBD’ers are basically just curious nerdy types trying to figure out how the world out. They’re by no means just white men either. Professor Steve Hsu’s Information Processing blog has a lot of fascinating discussion about HBD type issues.

  58. jim February 4, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Haven’t read the entire article yet but have you read about this new theory the white nationalists in the manosphere are pushing called edenism? They claim that whites are superior because they have neanderthal genes which were higher beings that came from space.

  59. Matt Parrott May 18, 2013 at 10:07 am

    What a bunch of fruity psychologizing clap-trap.

    Your argument basically boils down to “They explore a fascinating and taboo field of scientific inqury because they’re insecure little bitches.”

    While reading this, I was like, “My God, look at all these big words strung together in support of such a vulgar little schoolyard taunt disguised as a legitimate argument. This pattern of carelessly slinging abstractions like candy from a parade float, of mimicking the superficial trappings of thought without actually thinking, it seems like it was written by a… bedwetter.”

    Nailed it.

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